Gödel's Incompleteness Theorems

The cluster focuses on discussions of Gödel's incompleteness theorems, the limitations of axiomatic systems like ZFC set theory, and concepts such as consistency, completeness, and unprovable truths in mathematics.

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Keywords

ZF TFA QED e.g ZFC ANY wikipedia.org en.m ACL2 i.e axioms godel mathematics prove consistent theorems theory theorem set axiom

Sample Comments

cchooper Dec 22, 2008 View on HN

The second theorem tells us that we can't prove the consistency of set theory without using an even more powerful system. This doesn't mean that set theory is inconsistent, it just means that we can't prove its consistency in any meaningful way. So yes, Gödel indeed shows that there are no 'ultimate axioms' that contain everything of interest in mathematics.

pbhjpbhj Apr 28, 2018 View on HN

So maths isn't axiomatic, and can be fully proven - Godel was wrong?

gepoch Oct 13, 2020 View on HN

No system is powerful enough to prove all of the facts about natural numbers, right?

openasocket Mar 17, 2024 View on HN

Yeah, Cantors theorem is a theorem written in the language of ZFC set theory. In other axiom systems it may not be true. But you can also say that about literally every theorem beyond, like, modus ponens. Is that the point you are trying to make?

chrisweekly Dec 19, 2019 View on HN

"The mathematical statements discussed below are provably independent of ZFC (the canonical axiomatic set theory of contemporary mathematics, consisting of the Zermelo–Fraenkel axioms plus the axiom of choice), assuming that ZFC is consistent. A statement is independent of ZFC (sometimes phrased "undecidable in ZFC") if it can neither be proven nor disproven from the axioms of ZFC."- TFA

csense Mar 8, 2013 View on HN

Isn't this just a special case of one of Godel's incompleteness theorems?Roughly, the incompleteness theorems state that, in any sufficiently powerful, self-consistent, decidable mathematical axiom system, there are statements which are true, but cannot be proved. And "sufficiently powerful" means basically "including addition and multiplication." The high school axioms look like they're at least that powerful, so wouldn't it just be a direct application of Godel that such statements exist?

pmoriarty Sep 16, 2016 View on HN

"The most comprehensive formal systems yet set up are, on the one hand, the system of Principia Mathematica and, on the other, the axiom system for set theory of Zermelo-Fraenkel (later extended by J. v. Neumann). These two systems are so extensive that all methods of proof used in mathematics today have been formalized in them, i.e. reduced to a few axioms and rules of inference. It may therefore be surmised that these axioms and rules of inference are also sufficient to decide all mat

naasking Nov 19, 2022 View on HN

These are the implications of Godel's incompleteness theorems. No formal system expressive enough to encode arithmetic can simultaneously be both complete and prove its own consistency, because there will always be true propositions expressible in that system that cannot be proven in that system.This is why Hilbert's program to finitely axiomatize mathematics can't be completed. The "escape hatch" here is simply that not all propositions are actually interesting, so f

lupire Jun 5, 2024 View on HN

Probability is relative to an axiom systems.A more powerful system can prove statements that are true but not provable in a weaker system.For example "This sentence is not provable." (Godel's statement, written informally) is true, but not provable, in first order arithmetic logic.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagonal_lemmaIn constructivist mathematics

mensetmanusman Jun 7, 2019 View on HN

Science doesn’t prove axioms... Gödel already parsed this problem :)